|
More on Bloat
ByIan
Billinghurst as told to Andrea Madelev (posted to the
Wellpet list)
Hi all,
You may recall we had a case of a Great Dane bitch (6.5 years
/ spayed) that after having eaten some chicken parts became
ill and bloated. I told Joanne that I would forward her post
to Dr. Ian Billinghurst (Author: Give Your Dog A Bone) and
get some feedback on this.
Here is his reply in full. Andrea
6/19/1997
Hi Andrea,
Thank you for the opportunity to look
at this interesting case. We are all constantly learning -
and this case is no different. I am constantly learning what
parts of GYDAB require more detail and more emphasis.
Thinking of my own experiences with Great Danes and other
large breeds of dogs, and what breeders using the dietary
ideas in GYDAB have done and are doing and relating all of
this to nature - has prompted me to write the following.
I have NEVER, and to my knowledge,
neither have other Large or Giant Breed breeders that follow
the ideas of GYDAB, fed large dogs chicken thighs or drumsticks.
So I have no experience of doing this or seeing it done by
others. It is certainly not something I would recommend, especially
from the point of view of what would happen in nature. In
nature the whole animal would be available. This would mean
there would be less flesh and more bone, and the whole thing
would need to be chewed. These portions of chicken (as you
have noted) are not particularly chewed by the larger dogs
(except for very fussy eaters) but rather tend to be swallowed
whole. In addition as a major component in the diet, they
have a much too high flesh to bone ratio. Both of these factors
are not actually in the spirit of GYDAB. You may get away
with feeding this way forever, but if the conditions arise
which predispose to bloat (and we do not understand what all
of these are yet) disaster will follow.
The feeding of large numbers of chicken
thighs comes close to feeding a largely meat diet. That is
why I recommend chicken wings or necks. They have a far superior
flesh to bone ratio than the thighs and drumsticks. Ideal
in fact. In the case of chicken wings and necks, large dogs
might occasionally be fed these, but not very often. It is
only to the smaller breeds that we feed the tiny portions
of the chicken as a regular and large component of their diet.
However, the recommendation here is the chicken wing or necks.
My larger dogs have routinely eaten
raw meaty bones derived from lamb and beef, and if fed chicken,
it has consisted of either the whole chicken - but mainly
the chicken carcasses or frames. The chicken frame consists
of the backbone and ribs and whatever else hangs off this
part of the chicken - - after most of the flesh has been removed.
In other words, these frames are mostly bone and cartilage
with a little bit of flesh. These portions of chicken are
never swallowed whole, they have to be chewed. Also, their
low flesh to bone ratio and cartilage ratio make them ideal.
We obtain these from places where they bone out the chicken.
I do not know if parts like this are readily available in
the US but I'm sure that if enough people asked they soon
would be.
In my experience, these chicken frames
are not the sort of food which will promote bloating. I conjecture
or hypothesize so that this may be so because of their high
bone and cartilage content, their need to be chewed and their
texture or consistency in the stomach following being chewed.
Most of this has been covered in GYDAB,
but may require some ferreting out, or careful reading or
simply having caught the spirit of the book. If all that has
been elusive, please note the following:
Firstly, let me refer you to page 153 of GYDAB where I mention
that to large dogs we feed WHOLE chicken (and let me repeat,
they absolutely have to chew these) With large breeds, we
do feed the chicken wings and necks to the young puppies.
Also see the last paragraph p139 in
this respect.
Most importantly, let me refer you
to page 126 of GYDAB. If you read the first paragraph on this
page you will notice it says a whole lot. As does the next
one and the one after that. This is most important page, because
although I refer to feeding things such as canned dog food
or mince - the principles it speaks of apply very much to
this situation involving large dogs and their tendency to
bloat if fed incorrectly. In this case when fed food they
have no chewed and which had the tendency to sit in the stomach
as a large mass which promotes indigestion and possible bloat.
There is a whole lot more that could
be said, but the above will do for starters. I trust this
will assist. Obviously, I need to explain more clearly in
GYDAB what should and should not be fed to large dogs, particularly
those predisposed to bloat. My revised edition of the book
will say a whole lot more about feeding chicken to large dogs,
with probable reference to this particular case - so thank
you and all the best.
I did not hear or see the segment by
Dr. Zammit on Burke's Back Yard, so I can not really comment.
Regards,
Ian Billinghurst.
(Via a very typed out Andrea Madeley)
There you have Ian's reply. I must admit, even I have learned
from this about the smaller portions, although my Bernese
seem to chew the necks very well. But It's a good thing that
he has information like this. He can see what areas he needs
to clarify more.
As far as the info on the chicken meat and bloat off that
program...still waiting for the darn sheet. That's television
for you! I'll keep you all posted.
Take Care,
Andrea Madeley
Yes, Andrea, you're right, I really
shouldn't get angry with all this chicken bones misunderstandings...anger
is not productive! But, but, but,... I can't help but feel
tremendous guilt for not asking more questions BEFORE I experimented
on my Dane girl and put her through such needless suffering.
Unless it was you that rushed your dog into the emergency
room at 11:30 at night and hoped and prayed that she'd make
it through the surgery and post op care....you probably can't
totally relate. But, 'nuf said on that.
Your point that IB wrote his book for
an Australian audience is well taken. You guys have available
a wider selection of dog-appropriate meat/bone items than
us Yanks. Lamb and lamb bones are about as frequently seen
as the Hope Diamond....and I live in Kansas (beef capital),
not New York or L.A. Wings are too expensive for large dogs
and necks/backs/carcasses are simply not available where I
live. I even asked all three grocery stores in my town about
getting necks/backs/carcasses and was told they do no/zero/zip/zilcho
butchering in the store. All meats with bones come pre-packaged
in the popular pieces...thighs, wings, breasts, drums. Once
I asked the butcher in one of these grocery stores if he could
cut the beef soup bones in half, as they were just huge and
a lot of the marrow would be wasted. He said they are not
allowed to cut beef bones...."Its too dangerous"
were his exact words.
In addition to adding caveats
on how large and giant breeds should be fed on the GYDAB diet,
I hope IB might consider writing another version of his book
for an American audience, or at least include a section in
his next book specifically for Americans. Many of us just
can't get all the "cool" dog food goodies that you
folks have Down Under.
Joanne Blair
Hi Joanne,
I never thought through the whole GYDAB
book that chicken pieces where out for large breeds either.
In fact I got the opinion from the book that chicken bones
where fine and didn't get the impression that whole frames
needed feeding to large breeds either.
I only didn't feed thighs or drumsticks
etc. because discussing it with the vet I work with and the
fact my lab is a major pig she thought it wouldn't be a good
idea because she wouldn't chew them and they would take a
while to digest that way.
In a word I don't think you were being
too sensitive and I guess I wouldn't have liked that reply
if my dog had bloated either.
On another note, I discussed bloat
with the vet I work for just yesterday (had her pulling out
all manner of text books ;)), even though she looked at me
strangely as if to say, Why ask all these nutrition questions?
Why not just feed Eukanuba? - Anyway, her opinion is that
of course there is no proof about anything causing bloat but
from what she read and what she had seen as an emergency hospital
vet for a few years that yes the deep-chested breeds are more
prone (that we all know). She thinks the best way to avoid
bloat is to split feedings rather then to feed 1 meal a day
(which I am now doing with my dog). Also she suggested making
the food smaller for dogs that just swallow it anyway without
chewing (now what meat I feed I cut into smaller pieces as
I figure my dog doesn't chew it anyway no matter what size).
This is to make it pass from the stomach quicker. She also
thought bigger bones would be best i.e.: lamb shanks, etc.
that the dog has to chew up can't just crunch and swallow
and that I should remove them after she has chewed them down
to the long part of the bone.
Of course processed dog biscuits (the
cheaper ones that swell in the stomach are a major no-no re
bloating) are what she has mostly seen in the stomachs of
bloat dogs she has seen. Eaten too fast and then swollen to
huge proportions in the stomach.
Anyway the above is the opinion
of only 1 vet but they make sense to me so I'm going with
her opinion which really is mostly what I thought in the beginning.
I am however still confused about the chicken neck issue,
to feed or not to feed.
Kim
Joanne...
Hi, I sympathize about what you are going through right now...all
the confusion that you have, but I think what Ian Billinghurst
was trying to say was...someone please correct me if I'm wrong...If
you take 1 chicken and the amount of bones that are in it
is, say 75%, and you add the actual meat and that's 25%, well,
the 'whole' make up of that is much easier for the dog to
consume and digest. The reason being, dogs will not swallow
a carcass whole, so, they would have to chew it, breaking
all the bones up nicely.
When you give the dog a piece of thigh
or a leg the bone meat ratio is much higher for the meat part,
maybe 50/50...and if it's been pumped with steriods then the
meat ratio would be even higher, maybe 30% bone and 70% meat.
And the piece is most likely not chewed up that well. This
also is a concern when there is a higher meat ratio for the
digestibility of the item consumed.
Andrea...is this correct? Inquiring
minds want to know... regards,
Kathy Schonberg
|
